WH40k 8e: Analysis of Daemon Princes

Talk about gameplay, army lists, formations, units and single models in your favorite games.
Stelio
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:31 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

WH40k 8e: Analysis of Daemon Princes

Post by Stelio » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:05 pm

There is a Daemon Prince entry in both of the main Chaos army lists. How do they compare?

In terms of points cost (for Matched play) the two entries are identically costed: the individual model and every option costs the same, whether bought from the Heretic Astartes or Chaos Daemons army lists. However the Power Rating (used for Narrative play) differs: 10 for Heretic Astartes and 11 for Chaos Daemons. That's an odd inconsistency; I'd have thought it more likely to have different points for the same Power Rating rather than the other way around. But note that the Power Rating represents the average expected load-out (according to the designers) so perhaps they have data that shows the Chaos Daemons flavour of Prince is usually given more expensive options? Anyhow, there are mechanical differences too, and that's more interesting to me.

In the following list, I've coloured lines in green that favour the Heretic Astartes (HA) Daemon Prince and red for the Chaos Daemons (CD) Daemon Prince. This is just the list of differences; all other features (including weapon profiles) are identical for the two entries.
  • Wounds: 8 for HA, 10 for CD. That feels like a major differentiator!
  • Leadership: 10 for HA, 9 for CD. Not hugely significant. The standard Morale test won't ever affect the Daemon Prince since it's a single model, so this is going to matter only depending on what other abilities are in play in the opposing army.
  • Death to the False Emperor: HA only. If targetting an Imperium unit (and there's a lot of them) in the Fight phase, for every hit roll of 6+ you immediately get another attack against the same unit with the same weapon (that doesn't generate any further attacks).
  • Daemonic Ritual: CD only. Instead of moving in the Movement phase, any Chaos Character (with either no Mark of Chaos or a matching Mark of Chaos) can attempt to summon this unit. Roll up to 3D6, summoning the unit if the roll is equal to or greater than the Power Rating (within 12" of the summoner, and more than 9" from any enemies). On a double, the summoner takes a mortal wound. On a triple, the summoner takes D3 mortal wounds.
    • On 2D6: 8.33% chance of successful summon; 16.66% chance of 1 Wound.
    • On 3D6: 50% chance of successful summon; 41.66% chance of 1 Wound; 2.77% chance of D3 Wounds.
  • Mark of Chaos ability: CD only. And these are very useful abilities!
    • Khorne: Unstoppable Ferocity. +1 S and +1 A when charging, being charged, or performing a Heroic Intervention.
    • Tzeentch: Ephemeral Form. Invulnerable save increased from 5+ to 4+.
    • Nurgle: Disgustingly Resilient. 1 in 3 chance of ignoring each point of damage.
    • Slaanesh: Quicksilver. Always fights first.
  • Prince of Chaos: allows certain friendly units within 6" to re-roll to-hit rolls of 1. For HA, this is all <Legion> and <Mark> Daemon units. For CD, this is only <Mark> Daemon units.
  • Psychic powers differ: HA uses Dark Hereticus whereas CD uses Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch as appropriate. Which powers you find most useful depends on your strategy. But do note that you can choose your psychic powers now (no need to roll on a random table).
  • Faction: HA has Heretic Astartes and <Legion> (and is included on both the Thousand Sons and Death Guard unit list); CD has Daemon.
    • Note that the HA Daemon Prince does get the "Chaos" keyword, but not as a faction; this means that a Nurgle Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince still counts for Epidemius's Tally of Pestilence, for example.
    • Further note that the CD Daemon Prince has a "Daemon Prince of Chaos" keyword that should almost certainly be corrected to "Daemon Prince" in line with Be'lakor. Also Magnus the Red, for some reason, doesn't have the "Daemon Prince" keyword; probably an oversight.
Whether the Prince of Chaos ability tips your hand more towards HA than CD depends on the split of the rest of your army. I'm heavier on the Death Guard models than the Nurgle Daemons, personally. (Also my Daemon Prince is modelled and characterised as an uplifted Marine, so for fluff reasons I'll be using the HA entry. Maybe I need to acquire another Daemon Prince for the Daemons side of the army? There are loads of good models out there...)

Another factor to consider is what other units you have in your army that could potentially buff the Daemon Prince. The Chaos Daemons HQ models will happily work with either since they both have the Daemon keyword (even if it's not a Faction keyword for the HA version). But If you're using various Heretic Astartes HQ units, the bonuses they provide will only help a HA Daemon Prince.

Otherwise, given the combination of the difference in Wounds and the Mark of Chaos abilities, the Chaos Daemons version definitely has the edge. Disgustingly Resilient, for example, is broadly equivalent to a 50% uplift in wounds (it's actually worth slightly more due to a gearing effect of healing), so you're comparing HA's 8 against CD with effectively 15, for the same points cost!

Stelio
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:31 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: WH40k 8e: Analysis of Daemon Princes

Post by Stelio » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:48 pm

Aha! The recently published errata (v1.0) corrects the Daemon Prince of Chaos to have 8 Wounds rather than 10. Good. That addresses the biggest difference between the two datasheets. The "Mark of Chaos" ability is still a key differentiator though: the Nurgle Daemons Daemon Prince now has an effective 12 Wounds.

Also the (Heretic Astartes) Daemon Prince now has +1 to its Power Rating if it takes the Wings option. Essentially then it appears that it is assumed a Daemon Prince of Chaos will always have wings, and then the two entries have the same Power Rating.

I actually raised a large number of points with GW's game FAQ team by e-mail but none of my questions have been answered in the FAQ. :sad: Feeling the love.

User avatar
minamoto
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:25 pm
Location: Schwarzwald
Contact:

Re: WH40k 8e: Analysis of Daemon Princes

Post by minamoto » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:08 am

Thanks for the write up again Stelio!

It reads like the DP get a soft comeback for CSM, with a bit mor potential, never played a demon army though, sofar from what i've heard and read, the DPs was their heavy hitters so they were packed and armed to teeth to get the damage done - so this might explain the higher power level.

For CSM this rule looks like a huge buff:
Prince of Chaos: allows certain friendly units within 6"
So you don't equip them with wings for CC, instead make the badass sorcerrers that help your shooty units get more shooty?! A bubble of PM plus a DP is going to do alot of shooting "DAKKA DAKKA".

Math-Hammer wise you should get 3,5 additional hits out of this = 3*7*(1/6). If you want you could easily get 3 units of 7 PM next to your DP with a 1/6 chance of rolling ones.
In my case that will be more, as i role so bad :P

----
Death to the False emperor will be really mean against any SM army. Hitting Prime Marines and alike a bit harder, though as it's another attack it will allow saves.


A bit of a pitty, that CD and HA do not go more hand-in-hand, it would be lovely to swarm your enemy with PB and PM supported by Demon Princes. But at least you can get a list out of it.

If you get to playtest I'd love to read a brief follow-up. :)
>> Text goes 'ere <<

User avatar
minamoto
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:25 pm
Location: Schwarzwald
Contact:

Re: WH40k 8e: Analysis of Daemon Princes

Post by minamoto » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:39 am

DORKpost_id=1397 wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:08 am
Math-Hammer wise you should get 3,5 additional hits out of this = 3*7*(1/6). If you want you could easily get 3 units of 7 PM next to your DP with a 1/6 chance of rolling ones.
In my case that will be more, as i role so bad :P
It's a chance of 3,5 rerolls for your hits... need to add that 4/6-chance for real hits so it's potential 2,33333 hits more.
>> Text goes 'ere <<

Stelio
Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:31 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: WH40k 8e: Analysis of Daemon Princes

Post by Stelio » Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:55 am

minamoto wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:08 am
If you get to playtest I'd love to read a brief follow-up. :)
Ha! Like that's going to happen. XD

For context:
  • The last game of WH40k that I played was in 1989 or 1990, I think.
  • Most of my models are not yet assembled. None of my models are painted.
Sure, I'm all over the background and the rules, but it's a vicarious experience where I imagine completing my army and putting it on a table one day. My wife and I laughingly discuss it as a retirement project.

It's not all doom and gloom - I do actually get to do a bit of modelling now and then. It's just that with two young children, I don't have lots of free time. Still, I occasionally get a bit done. And I've been watching various videos to help me get started with the painting (there are so many on detailed techniques, but so few on the very basics like undercoating).

User avatar
minamoto
Posts: 242
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:25 pm
Location: Schwarzwald
Contact:

Re: WH40k 8e: Analysis of Daemon Princes

Post by minamoto » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:04 pm

Stelio wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:55 am
[For context:
  • The last game of WH40k that I played was in 1989 or 1990, I think.
  • Most of my models are not yet assembled. None of my models are painted.
With 8th Ed. it's like kinda reset.
Like any of us ever played with an entirely assembled or painted army XD XD XD

Okay, I try to play-test it in our gaming group then :)
Maybe on Friday, no idea yet, if its SW:A or our first dip into 8th.
>> Text goes 'ere <<

Tapeworm
Posts: 243
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:14 pm

Re: WH40k 8e: Analysis of Daemon Princes

Post by Tapeworm » Wed Jul 05, 2017 11:27 pm

I think Phill was the only one of us that had a fully painted army and if I remember correctly he sold it years ago! XD

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest